Is this item listing permitted?

[Forgotten_Freshness]

Now, I understand the difference between "homebrews", "Hacks", "reproductions", etc. as well as why these are acceptable here, but this listing here is a user selling straight Dreamcast bootlegs:


http://www.chasethechuckwagon.com/item.cgi?show_item=0000063581



Don't we have some rules against this? If he's selling working copies of all these games, why would anyone NOT buy these over a real copy someone might be listing? (Other than the obvious "Collector" reason, anyway).


Just wanted a heads up on this since I do not feel this listing is appropriate here.

[pats1717]

Yeah that is kinda sketchy

[GameShack]

Ya, that is not acceptable. I don't have a problem with people buringing back up for games they own. I don't want Mike to get in trouble because someone is selling bootlegs on the site, or the site to get a bad name.

[GameGavel]

Ya, HEX PM'd me that auction as well last night or early this morning. I emailed the seller this morning asking kindly to remove. As it wasn't removed yet, I went ahead and took care of it myself. Thanks all for keeping tabs on the stuff :)

[pats1717]

it has been ended

[Chewieshmoo]

Wow! And just $5 each to! Yeah thanks I can download and burn myself "FOR BACKUP PURPOSES" :WINK: onto my own CD's thanks...........

[megasdkirby]

Incredible how some would stoop so low and sell backups.

[Forgotten_Freshness]

Glad to see this was taken care of. :)


:DC:

[GameGavel]

Glad to see this was taken care of. :)


:DC:


Ya, not cool. It did spark some communication with my wife about piracy though. She asked what's the differece between someone copying DC games and someone selling a repro Atari cart of a hard to find, rare game? I really didn't have a good answer for her on that? She kept shooting me down saying when you boil it all down, it's the same thing.

We will be having a good roundtable discussion on Retrogamingroundup.com in the coming months on this always relevant topic.

[pats1717]

Ya, not cool. It did spark some communication with my wife about piracy though. She asked what's the differece between someone copying DC games and someone selling a repro Atari cart of a hard to find, rare game? I really didn't have a good answer for her on that? She kept shooting me down saying when you boil it all down, it's the same thing.

We will be having a good roundtable discussion on Retrogamingroundup.com in the coming months on this always relevant topic.

The main difference is people buy those repro carts because they just can't find the real deal (NWC). The most expensive dreamcast game is around 60 bucks. A repro cart is usually a quality product. The Dreamcast games are burnt onto a blank cd
:)

[SegaAges]

It is one of those subjects where the cart peeps get all up in flames when you call a repro a bootleg, yet burnt DC games are all not cool for some reason.

Now, this is only my opinion, but this is how I see it:
bootleg = absolutely anything copied to play in the original system which includes, but is not limited to: repros, eproms, cdr's, dvdr's, flash carts, hard disks, floppy discs (I think I might have missed a couple). Now, there are exceptions, like downloadable games such as MegaMan 9, or course.

DC just happens to accept cds. The only reason why the 2600, NES (cart systems) get called repros, is because they don't accept cd's. In the end, you are still playing a copied game regardless of how rare it is.

Now, with you Mike, you have a tougher call: since burnt discs are not allowed, should 2600 games that use your everyday eprom be acceptable? I personally have some eproms of unreleased 2600 games. Will I sell them? No. Even the nicest repro is still a bootleg unless it is a homebrew or a hack. If you think I am lying, I can show you pictures of my copy of Half Life or Propeller Arena for DC. Oops, I found an example of unreleased rare games for a cd system. Plus my copies look incredibly nice. Their cases I made look so nice to where you could easily be confused and think that the games were really released. Nice cd labels and all. The only difference is that I used Black Diamond CD-R's, which, back when these games first got released to the wild, were top of the line and yes, years later those black diamond disks are still holding up just fine. But yet, my 2600 repros are seriously just a couple eproms and one of those repro boards from atari age. That is it. I got 2 repros for 2600 games that are the equivalent of just a cd-r of a burnt game, but at the same token, I have some burnt games that I put so much work into that they look just as good as any DC game you will ever find (not to mention the 2 games are incredibly rare, and I know for a fact they would go for well over $60 for a legit copy).

Like I said, it is my opinion, but rarity should not hold ground, as I can throw out unreleased DC games to hit a counter on rarity. I believe that if you allow repros, you should allow dc cdr's.

Because, honestly, I can sit here and prove to you how burnt DC games are the same thing as repros. If you want me to, I would be more than willing to, but if not, I think it is only fair to treat everybody the same, so if no cd based repros, no cart based repros.

[Chewieshmoo]

Nope sorry, don't see it that way. I am not here to argue the point, just my opinion then I am outta here. To be honest I don't really care what is allowed to be sold here but I would insist that if any type of burned CD or DVD be allowed then it must be made perfectly clear that they are in fact just that, burned copies. HOWEVER, overall I don't think discs of any type should be allowed. A REPRO cart is much different. I can go out and buy cheaply CD's or DVD's in bulk, download ISO images, burn them and heck even attempt to reproduce the original with printed labels, jewel case inserts etc. If I want a reproduction of say a 2600, Colecovision, or other cart I can only obtain this by ordering from someone who makes this available, the amount of people who can create repro carts is far smaller. Repro carts tend to contain either redone or improved versions of original titles or all new creations by talented programmers, that is far different then just burning a retail rip of a Dreamcast commercial title, anyone looking to but CD/DVD media based "backups" doesn't have to do too much to be able to undertake the task of doing it themselves, much more work and attention to detail is required to reproduce a cartridge, I see nothing wrong with reproduction cartridges but any thing that can be burned to disc is getting a little risky. Come on, MIKE has to be careful and does not want to do anything to jeopardize or bring the powers that be down on CTCW and allowing dis based media backups in any shape or form significantly increases that risk. WE DONT NEED A FLOOD OF PIRATED DISCS HERE, reproduction carts are not something anyone other than serious collectors are likely to give a damn about.

[SegaAges]

What I am trying to say is that right now, all I need is an EPROM burner (which can be had at the same going rate as most dvd burners today), then I go ONLINE AND DOWNLOAD THE ROM, and then just burn it to the eprom.

If you want my opinion, whether we like it or not, we can't have one without the other, which means Mike would need to pull all repro cart auctions as well.

Sure, some repro carts alot of work and love go into them, but the same work and love can be put onto a cd based repro as well. I will take pictures of my cd based DC repros tonight when I get home to show you (and no, not for sale).

Also, there are many, MANY cd based games that were never released, that can be turned into a repro as well. We can't write those off just to simply say that all cd based repros need to go.

Let's not forget, the DC has a very avid homebrew scene.

I hate to be the jerk here, but I am at work, and when I get off of work, I will take pictures to show you 2 unreleased DC games that I made repros of.

cart based repros, sure, some of them take more work than others, but allowing NES and SNES repros (which I have learned are not the easiest to do) means we need to allow Atari 2600 repros (much, much easier to do with just a simple eprom burner).

As we go down the line, it will come down to whether or not a game has been released commercially. Yes, some systems are much easier to do than others, including some cart based being extremely easy, and at the same time some being extremely technical, we can't turn it into a cart vs. cd based battle, and it should all be treated the same.

Like I said in my original post, what normally happens is the cart peeps get all up in arms when anybody even compares a cd repro to a cart repro.

Also with the market of people buying games, I highly doubt the mass market is into Propeller Arena for Dreamcast. Why should this game be treated any different than a Combat 2 repro for 2600? Both are unreleased games with roms/isos available online.

I know that there is somebody that makes homebrew nes games and sells them on chase, and there is nothing wrong with that, as it is homebrew, but at the other end of the spectrum, if those are allowed to be sold, then a homebrew that I personally make for DC should also be able to sell here as well. Yes, any homebrew that I can go and download, it is wrong to even try to make a profit off of it, but this is not the case with everything.

It is an extremely thin line to play with, and that is why I am saying stuff about cd based. This site hit its year, and its awesome, so I highly doubt Mike wants to jump around that very thin line.

You can also justify carts all you want for repros, but in the end, if Atari thinks they need to go, it won't matter what you say, it will be Mike on the receiving end. Same with NES repros. Same with SNES and so on and so forth.

The reason the DC auction ended was to avoid that line and stay as far away from it as possible.

If a repro can be made for ps1, DC of a very rare or unreleased game, it should be treated the same as a repro that can be made for 2600 or nes or any cart based system.

You guys talking Mike into repros is basically saying, "Hey Mike, you see that line, don't worry if Atari or Nintendo tries to sue you, we got your back".

I love you Mike (in a hetero friend type of way), but I can't afford to pay for lawyers that can compete against a Nintendo lawyer. Sorry bro.

[Chickybaby]

I had a beautiful reply typed up on how common an Eprom Burner is Vs a CD or DVD burner and how you can find various Sega games collections (for example) on newer systems vs say Glib, Video Life, or Condor Attack from 2600 which I have seen reproduced but will most likely never find rereleased. I also mentioned the skills involved with hacks, and homebrews as well as games not available in NTSC format or ones that require special boards such as Serius and Plutos, and others that require a lot of technical know how or soldering skills, and others where the authors have given permission to reproduce them. Also how there are many Atari games that have less then 10-25 known in existance vs other systems and how many go for 200- a few thousand dollars. You can find Disc based games and DVD Movies in many retail stores (except for Dreamcast and Saturn). Some systems have expensive games also not because they are rare but because they are highly recognized franchises or are very popular.
It sounded very nice and professional with more points but I got a sever busy error twice in a row now and lost the msg for the second thread in a row I tried posting in today.

[SegaAges]

I just want you to know, that I agree with your points.

I am just informing that even thought they were released in less quantities, it is an extremely thin line to walk on to allow repros of rare atari games, and not of rare DC games.

Of course, games such as Splinter Cell on 360 would be a huge no no.

If we allow repros, what is to stop me from putting out repros of combat or et for 2600 or putting out repros of smb/dh or super mario 3 for nes?

Hey, a repro is a repro. If 2600 and NES repros are fine, then these are perfectly acceptable.

That is why I was saying that is is a very fine line, and that if one is gone, they both need to be whether we like it or not, and if somebody wants to post something, then they need to actually get permission from Mike himself (and yes, Mike is very easy to work with).

Honestly, if you allow cart repros, then there should be no difference between somebody making smb repros than nwc repros for nes. They would be the same. I know it is a horrible example since it would cost more money than it is worth to do a smb/dh repro, but you could if you wanted.

Unless it is some kind of homebrew or new release for older system, it should not be allowed in my opinion. Here are some examples: that nes christmas cart. Nothing wrong with that. It plays x-mas music. Cool Herders for DC. Brand new game. Those are cool.

Here are examples of what I think are not cool: NWC Repro for NES. No matter which way you look at this, no matter how rare it is, this is still a repro of a game that was released (even if not to the general public) Here is another one: Sonic Adventure: Limited Edition. While incredibly rare, this game was still released.

[Chewieshmoo]

If you want my opinion, whether we like it or not, we can't have one without the other, which means Mike would need to pull all repro cart auctions as well.

Er, well the fact of the matter MIKE can choose to have one without the other, that is his decision............

I DO see your points but I still think it is a much smaller percentage of people who purchase or create CD/DVD media based copies even know what a EPROM burner is let's be realistic.........

Secondly I just don't see Nintendo, Sega or any other company getting their feathers ruffled over reproduction carts so much as copies of retail disc based (which are much easier to create multiple copies of) media, I mean I buy a repro cart and THAT's it, I buy or create a disc based backup and I can so easily reproduce more copies and so can anyone I give it to......

I AM SURE if this site is flooded with copies of retail disc based media (DREAMCAST/SEGA CD/PS2 etc) it will not be long before the LEGAL EAGLES start swooping down, I have not so far known them to be concerned with repro carts.........

Just I I would probably attempt to Ebay a repro cart I would not even attempt to Ebay a copied DREAMCAST or PS2 game.......

Say what you will, it's MIKES call PERIOD, will be interesting to see his points if he chimes in again.

[SegaAges]

Hehehehe.

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile. I post while I am worknig, and I have been working lately.

I started posting up that it was Mike's decision in the end. I think you grabbed one line from a huge novel I wrote, hehehe.

The fun fact of the matter is that as far as I have seen, this site is still pretty niche, which means that I would be very surprised if people on here do not know that you can just burn 2600 games onto eproms and get 2600 boards for those eproms extremely easily and cheap online.

I won't throw out numbers since I don't have them, but it is safe to say that with a place like chase, people are not in the dark about how to make repros.

Some are much easier to make than others. Some use different media than others. Some require donor carts, some require eproms, some require cd-r's, some require dvd-r's.

I definately agree that it is Mike's call, but I also feel that me not being able to put a Propeller Arena put onto a Black Diamond CDR with a full on inlay and everything made for it while NWC repros are up is a little unfair.

I just personally see it that a copy of a game, is a copy of a game, no matter how difficult it is to make, no matter how easy it is to make. In the end, regardless, it is still a copy and not a legit original.

I do agree that no matter what, regardless of anybody's opinion, in the end, it will be Mike's opinion that matters, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents out there.

[GameGavel]

Hey Everyone,

I think I have been avoiding this topic as long as I can :)

Here's the deal. SegaAges example of Propeller Arena is fine by me as it was a game that never really saw the light of day. And doing it up like he says is similar to how you Atari folk dress of your repro carts,boxes, intructions, etc. I am all for releasing games like this - and making them available to people. As long as the IP is old, out of date, not owned, etc. etc. This is where it's hard to determine. There is no right answer here. Some games that are clearly outdated, and have fallen off the earth, may still be owned by someone. Generally in gaming the owners of these games don't seem to mind that their titles are living on in this way. Others may have issues. All anyone can do is ask to have an auction pulled or pull a cease and desist on us and we will comply.

I just don't want to see copies of games burned to a CD or dumped on a cartridge - for common everyday games. Thats all. I mean we don't see people selling repros of Atari 2600 Pac Man, because what's the point. But when someone repros a game like River Patrol then, hey, cool. Now people that can't find or afford an original can buy this reproduction. Then as long as it clearly states in the auction listing it is a Repro then I think we are all cool with it.

As far as the Dreamcast is concerned, repros of hard to find or unrealesed games are cool with me. Common games would be a no no. Does that make sense?

If anyone is questioning something they want to list, email or PM me and we can discuss it :)

[GameShack]

Just my two cents here, My main concern is that CTCW could get some major fines for allowing sellers to post bootlegs, It dose not matter to the copy right holder if the seller makes a pretty package, to them that just makes the matter worse, Then it not only infringes on the game's copy right, but also on the holder of the art, layout, ect...

I for one have no problem with backing up ones personal collection, or downloading a rom of an unreleased game. but when it comes to someone deliberately creating a repro that is damaging not only to the copyright holders, but mostly to the community of resellers, odds are that the copyright holder will never produce/sell another copy of the game, but they will nail you with a lawsuit if they think they can make a buck. We also have to think of the reseller community, every time someone reproduces a copy of a rare game they try to make it look as authentic as possible, which in turn makes buyers wary and they are less likely to bid high on the real thing for fear it could be a repro. I could go longer, but dont have time....